peoples opinions on topics you care about......

This thread is for us to ask each other for an opinion on certain wrestling related things.
Ive made this because im interested to know your thoughts on the scenarios below.....

Who was at fault in Montreal: McMahon or Hart?

Who was the better stable through all eras: nWo or DX?

Who was ultimately resposible for the death of the original WCW: Russo, Bischoff, Hogan, Turner execs, other?

Your fave and worse wrestling storyline in history?

You dont have to give reasons for your pick but its fine if you do, may even get some debate going god forbid!

Who was at fault in Montreal: McMahon or Hart?

McMahon has to be to blame here I think for screwing Hart over so majorly however Bret should have just given up the title to HBK in Montreal any way the person feel most sorry for is Ken Shamrock whjo would have took it off Hart the next night on Raw. After this Shamrock never got a real big push again.

Who was the better stable through all eras: nWo or DX?

NWO out of these two they were the original. Favourite stable though is the orginal Horseman

Who was ultimately resposible for the death of the original WCW: Russo, Bischoff, Hogan, Turner execs, other?

All of the above had a hand to play in it although the Hulkster recieved the majority of the blame from me for just being such an arrogant arse

Your fave and worse wrestling storyline in history?

Worse KAtie Vic

Best loved the whole Ministry thing but sure there is more just cannot think right now

The Alliance had potential to be great just handled badly

For me, McMahon was definitely at fault, this is still the most disgusting thing I've seen in wrestling. Bret was in his home town and had been loyal all them years. All he wanted was not to drop the belt to Michaels in Montreal, that would be pretty much the worst way he could imagine going out of WWF but Vince made that a reality. He would have dropped it to anyone but Shawn and even if he retained he wouldn't of taken it to WCW (I know that's just opinion, but still...). Bret was treat like shit by McMahon.

NWO would have to be my next choice. The way that story was executed was perfect and basically why WWF ended up getting battered for ages. I loved the feel of the stable and how they grew into this big ass organisation and practically took over WCW. Then we got the Wolfpac, LWO etc. It did get a bit out of hand I suppose, stayed longer than it was welcome but it was still amazing. As for DX it started of well but I didn't really like them, especially after Michaels left. They were interesting enough but I didn't find them as likeable.

This is a toughie. It was a combination of loads of people but ultimately I would it was Time Warner. They never like WCW and kept forcing them to do what they wanted and kept restricting what they could do. WCW was totally restricted in what they were able to do. They finally withdrew funding altogether and left it to be auctioned off to whoever. So ultimately, Time Warner killed WCW off.

Favourite storyline would have to be the Hogan and Sting feud leading to Starrcade 97. The hype this match got was unbelievable. Hogan was hated and the fans bummed Sting at this point who hadn't spoke or wrestled for ages and just appeared as some random "scary man" now and again. The match itself was crappy tbh, but the heat was so good everyone loved it.

As for the worst, there's a lot to pick. But I'll go for that time when Vince was "blown up". I never even watched wrestling at this point but watched this particular Smackdown (I think). I was amazed at how bad it all was and who knows what they were thinking of doing with it. I don't think I really don't need to justify why this was so crap. From the phony police reports to the "tribute" shown this was true bollocks.

Who was at fault in Montreal: McMahon or Hart? I don't think you can really put the blame solely on either one of them. Bret's ego obviously got in the way of things and his refusal to drop the belt to Michaels that night, while justified in his own mind, was not best for business. Vince was wrong in the way he went about things, as he could have just told Bret he was dropping the title no matter what, or taken Bret at his word that he would drop it the following night, Bret I feel is one of the few guys that could be trusted to do this. Let's not forget of course that bret was doing Vince a favour by leaving too, as Vince decided he could no longer afford the contract he had given Bret.

Who was the better stable through all eras: nWo or DX? nWo, the epitomy of cool. Bad guys that you just couldn't help cheering for. DX were like a cheap knock off, and i don't know why but I could never really get into them. Their recent reunion was absolutely attrocious too.

Who was ultimately resposible for the death of the original WCW: Russo, Bischoff, Hogan, Turner execs, other? Same thoughts as cruiser on this one. Everyone played their part, but Hogan having to constantly be the centre of attention along with his buddies was a real killer. Bischoff blowing money on having acts like Megadeth play on Nitro was another major factor.

Your fave and worse wrestling storyline in history?
Worst: Matt Hardy\Kane\Lita story with Lita ending up pregnant after being raped by Kane. the one and only time I've been thankful for Snitsky is when he ended that whole thing.

Best: Randy Savage\Jake Roberts fued where Roberts interrupted the wedding of Savage and Elizabeth.

The Montreal Screwjob, for me atleast, land's on Bret Hart, soley! Why would he refuse to do his job? Why did he refuse to drop the belt when he was asked? Why should McMahon even be held remoteley responcible? Hart has had an history of not wanting to drop belt's to certain people (from what I heard he was reluctant to drop to Deisel and therefore had to drop to Bob Baclund for Nash to get the strap?) if Bret really saw what was better (for him as well as the company he had loyalty to) he woulda dropped it, he woulda got over as a massive baby face and woulda garnered attention for his move to WCW (for a real reason rather than 'being screwed'), who know's, WCW might have played off this massive baby face push and alot of thing's might have been different, instead they played him as a whiny bitch, which normally in the kayfabe world of wrestling smark's and mark's wont take too seriously, but to see a 'legend' bitching like this, I dunno, kinda 'sullied' his other wise legendary career for me. That's just my thought's, from an outsider looking in.

Stable's, NWO defo was the more original of the two, but after sooo many incarnation's, switch-about's, cross-promotional form's, it kinda lost it's originallity. A great idea was worked TO DEATH! Every body wanted to be part of it just to get abit of TV time lol. But DX weren't THAT special for me, it was good, then HBK left, it went down abit, then got abit better, then disapeared to reapear, what? 4 year after? And the 'new' DX was played.

Death of WCW, all of the above, BUT I would lay less blaim on Russo and more on, not the exec's persay, but more on the way the exec's worked. they just let too much shit happen, and they had less say than they should've.

Best storyline, Ministry/ Corporation/ Corperate Ministry/ Union. To say how long these story's went on for, it was never stale, and aswell as involving star's/ future star's, every body in the stable's were fueding with every body in the opposite stable, instead of how they do it these day's, (in TNA) one guy has a beef with another guy, get's another guy who is beefing with the 1st guy's opponent's mate, etc, just seem's like a mix up of random story line's...

I agree about that Cruiser, the Alliance was good, could've been great, but looking back on it, who else was gonna come out on top's? It even had some of the best matches Ive ever seen in WWF/E, namely the Jeff Hardy/ RVD hardcore match at InVasion.

Worse story line, I dunno about this, I dont think any body can really oint out one story line aqnd say that is the worse they've seen, there as been so many bad, even in the better day's of WWF/E there was BAAAD storyline's. One I would put up there though, and Im oh so glad I missed it because, man, it sounded shit when I read about it, has to be the Spirit Squad and DX angle they did, they were helping McMahon I think, carry on from HBK/ God angle was it? Or was that after?

MaFish you raise some very good points about Bret there never really thought of it like that. its just like any normal job you do as your boss tells you to
And
Stable fueds totally agree when they hung Bossman I marked out to shit lol

Cruiserjim1 wrote:

the person feel most sorry for is Ken Shamrock whjo would have took it off Hart the next night on Raw. After this Shamrock never got a real big push again.

I never knew that, is that true?

Yeah I read somewhere that he agreed to drop it to Ken Shamrock on Raw the night after I have though more recently seen the same thing on Wikipedia which makes me doubt it more but originally I saw it on something different than Wikipedia

That's exactly what it is though, a job, if you worked in a factory (I know but... ) and you said, right Il do that tomorrow and you had been told to do it today, how long would you last, even if you was an high up guy in the company? Bret say''s he didn't want to drop in Montreal was something else I didn't get, that's what I meant with him getting over as a massive baby face, in his home town, maybe getting kayfabed screwed, run in from HHH or something. But breaking kayfabe like that and making it public knowledge and making McMahon the 'bad guy' could've been really bad for WWF/E in term's of fan's perception to the whole thing.

Mcmahon was at fault in Montreal. The match's ending was agreed upon, and Vince changed it without telling Hart. How that makes it anything but mcmahon's fault, is a mystery to me.

DX was the better stable, mainly b/c NWO was way before my time

Can't really comment on the death of WCW, but i'd have to say its letting wrestlers book the matches. (Counted out in a Falls count anywhere match, pinned in a stretcher match, ect)

Swaggle as son might be the worst i've seen.

I liked Morrison punk over the summer

I dont know for sure but I dont think thats true as ive seen and read interviews with Bret and all involved in Montreal and the only thing ive read about the plans for Raw the following night is that Bret wanted to vacate the title on it but would be willing to drop it 'under the right curcumstances'

I often wonder if given the chance Bischoff would have paid Bret to show up on nitro and bin the WWE title.

I know I would.

MaFish1 wrote:

That's exactly what it is though, a job, if you worked in a factory (I know but... ) and you said, right Il do that tomorrow and you had been told to do it today, how long would you last, even if you was an high up guy in the company? Bret say''s he didn't want to drop in Montreal was something else I didn't get, that's what I meant with him getting over as a massive baby face, in his home town, maybe getting kayfabed screwed, run in from HHH or something. But breaking kayfabe like that and making it public knowledge and making McMahon the 'bad guy' could've been really bad for WWF/E in term's of fan's perception to the whole thing.

To stick with the analogy, the montreal would be if you say i'll do it tomorrow, and your boss says fine, and then fires you for not having it done today.

Granted Screwing him was the birth of Mr. Mcmahon, so thats a good thing.

Ok having just looked up a little more on the Raw after the ScrewJob

Bret agreed to drop the title to Shamrock who would win a fatal four way with either Mankind/Vader, HBK, Bret and Shamrock in. Bret agreed for HBK to win the Survivor Series match via DQ.

However Vince wanted HBK to win at Survivor Series via DQ and then go on to win the fatal fourway the night after on Raw Bret eventually agreed although he was not happy about it.

I often wonder if given the chance Bischoff would have paid Bret to show up on nitro and bin the WWE title.

I know I would.
_________________


In Bischoff's autobiography, he actually says he was prepared to tell Bret to do just that. The WCW legal department binned that idea for him, they had already been sued royalled over the Alundra blaze incident, and were terrified of another hefty pay-out.

Montreal is all Bret's fault. He was told to do a job, he should have done it. And so what if he didn't want to lose in Canada? Can you imagine if Undertaker refused to lose the title on American soil? Bret was an employee, Vince was his boss. You do what the boss says. end of.

GRECIAN-IN-BATH wrote:

I often wonder if given the chance Bischoff would have paid Bret to show up on nitro and bin the WWE title.

I know I would.
_________________


In Bischoff's autobiography, he actually says he was prepared to tell Bret to do just that. The WCW legal department binned that idea for him, they had already been sued royalled over the Alundra blaze incident, and were terrified of another hefty pay-out.

Montreal is all Bret's fault. He was told to do a job, he should have done it. And so what if he didn't want to lose in Canada? Can you imagine if Undertaker refused to lose the title on American soil? Bret was an employee, Vince was his boss. You do what the boss says. end of.

Thats just it though. Vince asked him, he said no, and vince said how bout tomorrow. They agreed. Then vince changed to survivor series, without telling bret.
Bret Didn't do anything but stick to the script he was given.

I knew Montreal would cause mass debate, it always does.

Depending on what mood im in effects who i agree with, right there Mafish made some good points but then I read Doomhammers and they countered them brilliantly (the factory worker is a good one)
The thing I usually refer back to is the fact that Bret had a small amount of creative control in his contract, however I think this was designed more so Bret could vet storylines and character tweaks intended for the Hitman character.

Why did he have to change it though? It's a professional business Doom, there's way's to go about thing's, and Bret 'The Diva' Hart just demanded too much at time's. It's true he woulda dropped it the next night, but what's the difference? He wouldn't have dropped to HBK (apparently, cheers for that Cruiser lol), just another example of people thinking they're bigger than the business that made 'em.

There are certain thing's asked of you, maybe it was abit dodgy comparing it to a factory job but meh... The point is Bret really had no leg to stand on refusing to drop the belt, he was asked to, any body else wouldn't have that option to say no, but Bret being the big star he was... Jobbing and getting people over is something every body does at every stage of the wrestling career.

But that's show business for ya innit lol.

I am now starting come around to MaFishes way of thinking yes he was given a job to do but didnt do it.

Maybe Vince was feeling the pressure of WCW and created the most talked about momnet in wrestling history and keeping Hart out of the picture was vital he needed real reaction in a world of fakeness, Vince genius

MaFish1 wrote:

Why did he have to change it though? It's a professional business Doom, there's way's to go about thing's, and Bret 'The Diva' Hart just demanded too much at time's. It's true he woulda dropped it the next night, but what's the difference? He wouldn't have dropped to HBK (apparently, cheers for that Cruiser lol), just another example of people thinking they're bigger than the business that made 'em.

There are certain thing's asked of you, maybe it was abit dodgy comparing it to a factory job but meh... The point is Bret really had no leg to stand on refusing to drop the belt, he was asked to, any body else wouldn't have that option to say no, but Bret being the big star he was... Jobbing and getting people over is something every body does at every stage of the wrestling career.

But that's show business for ya innit lol.

Yes, but your missing the point.

Vince: Your gonna drop the belt at survior series, To HBK
Bret: I don't wanna
Vince: Tought shit.
If that or some variation of that was how it went down, it's bret's fault

Vince: your gonna drop the belt at survivor series, to HBK
Bret: How bout i drop it monday, to HBK?
Vince: Thats fine
*Bret looses at survior series*
This is how it went down, then it's vinces fault

Regardless of how bitchy it was to not want to drop the belt in montreal, Bret was told he wasn't going too.
Vince then took it in Montreal, without telling bret he was going to loose it.

Doomhammer wrote:

GRECIAN-IN-BATH wrote:

I often wonder if given the chance Bischoff would have paid Bret to show up on nitro and bin the WWE title.

I know I would.
_________________


In Bischoff's autobiography, he actually says he was prepared to tell Bret to do just that. The WCW legal department binned that idea for him, they had already been sued royalled over the Alundra blaze incident, and were terrified of another hefty pay-out.

Montreal is all Bret's fault. He was told to do a job, he should have done it. And so what if he didn't want to lose in Canada? Can you imagine if Undertaker refused to lose the title on American soil? Bret was an employee, Vince was his boss. You do what the boss says. end of.

Thats just it though. Vince asked him, he said no, and vince said how bout tomorrow. They agreed. Then vince changed to survivor series, without telling bret.
Bret Didn't do anything but stick to the script he was given.

But if Bret had agreed to do what Vince asked to start with, Vince wouldn't have had to screw him. Bret always maintained he's do a job for anyone when asked, but when asked to lose in Canada to someone he didn't like, refused. You can try and justify Bret 'sticking to the script' all you like, but him sulking made the script get changed in the first place. No-one to blame but himself.

Think of it this way then Doom...

Vince: You gonna drop to HBK at SS.
Bret: I dont waaaaaannnnnaaaaaaaa
Vince: tough shit boyo!
Bret: Buuuuuuut Viiiiiiince!!!!!!
Vince: Bret, stop acting like a little bitch, your dropping at SS.
Bret: Il tell my daddy, Stu Hart on yoo!
Vince: Bret, you ARE dropping it to HBK at SS! END OF!
Bret: buuuuuuuuuuut vaaaaaaaaannnnnnnncecceceeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!
Vince: Oh fuck off you morngy twat, you drop it on Monday then, *under breathe* geeeez what a bitch!

That was a joke BtW, but it does kinda underline what I was saying.

Who was at fault in Montreal: McMahon or Hart?

Bret Hart was, absolutely no doubt, sorry but that "ill drop it tomorrow" shit doesn't wash, do the job your paid to do, god damn Mark and totally unprofessional. He stabbed everyone who ever put him over in the back when he refused to job to HBK.

Who was the better stable through all eras: nWo or DX?

DX, NWO had Hogan and I hate/hated him, plus WCW sucked monkey balls.

Who was ultimately responsible for the death of the original WCW: Russo, Bischoff, Hogan, Turner execs, other?

All of the above, mainly Hogan/ Turner executives/Time Warner

Your fave and worse wrestling storyline in history?

Best: Ministry
Worst: Anything Hornswoggle

There is of course the theory that the whole thing was a work, with it acting as the springboard for the Mr McMahon character, and Bret's being screwed could have been used to give Bret a mega push in WCW, unfortunately though WCW couldn't book cinema tickets let alone a storyline of that magnitude. Not saying that's what I believe, it's just a possibility.

and a BIG possibility at that, although IF it was a work its the greatest work in history.

Something just doesn't sit right about that documentary that was being made at the time.

That being said, I still think it was Bert being a mark.